Recovery Days / Time

[Scooter]

Something that has always bothered me is the concept of recovery days. I have had friends, doctors, trainers and strangers tell me, you're getting old, you need recovery days. If someone trains for 3 hours per day, that is 1/8 th of the day, the other 7/8th's should be sufficient recovery time don't you think? Maybe we get old and weak because we recover too much and work too little. I wonder if recovery time is really needed or is it just something someone made up to get out of working hard. It sounds like a concept some of my employees thought up. Hey Scooter, I have been writing code for three hours straight, I need the next 24 hours to recover.

While watching Running the Sahara it brought this home to me. They ran 12 hours a day for 111 days. Obviously they didn't do much other than eat, run, do bodily functions and sleep. They all survived and went on to do bigger and better things. Most elite of the elite don't take big breaks. Scott Jurek talks about running multiple Ultras in the same week or month and only lets off training once a year.

When I first heard you talk about 3 hours per day I scoffed. Then I felt ashamed, Now I have respect.

Right On jethrah!

[Stoic_Jason]

Originally Posted by Scooter

Something that has always bothered me is the concept of recovery days. I have had friends, doctors, trainers and strangers tell me, you're getting old, you need recovery days. If someone trains for 3 hours per day, that is 1/8 th of the day, the other 7/8th's should be sufficient recovery time don't you think? Maybe we get old and weak because we recover too much and work too little. I wonder if recovery time is really needed or is it just something someone made up to get out of working hard. It sounds like a concept some of my employees thought up. Hey Scooter, I have been writing code for three hours straight, I need the next 24 hours to recover.

While watching Running the Sahara it brought this home to me. They ran 12 hours a day for 111 days. Obviously they didn't do much other than eat, run, do bodily functions and sleep. They all survived and went on to do bigger and better things. Most elite of the elite don't take big breaks. Scott Jurek talks about running multiple Ultras in the same week or month and only lets off training once a year.

When I first heard you talk about 3 hours per day I scoffed. Then I felt ashamed, Now I have respect.

Right On jethrah!

Recovery days are a valid concept in maximizing muscle growth. Recovery days or times may also be a valid concept in doing work that is mentally or emotionally demanding.
BUT-
Runners can run long distances day after day. Dancers can dance. Baseball players can take cuts, as can golfers. They can all do this and get maximum benefit.

Muscle-builders can lift weights for hours each day without taking days off, but THEY aren't going to be realizing maximum return for their work. Maybe the confusion came from the term "working out". Bodybuilders benefit greatly from well-timed recovery, recovery from their "workouts". Some cardio buffs probably heard recovery time was an important part of a "workout" plan, and the misinformation snowballed.

[Scooter]

I thought I would pull this into its own thread since we were in Jethrah's thread. I will move the two posts that I and Jason made since they really are relevant here

[Scooter]

Hey, it worked

anyway, the reason I ask about recovery days is that you hear about it all the time. When I was working as a manual hoe operator AKA ditch digger, I would go for hours on end digging holes and performing intesnse manual labor. I did this day in and day out and other than drinking water I had little concern for electrolytes, overworking muscles, tissue breakdown etc... My boss just said dig and I dug. I built a pretty decent body doing this kind of work, my arms were huge, Chest massive, strong heart and good heath. There were other guys on the crew that were even bigger, many looked like body builders and the most rest these guys took was a few hours at the bar after work, in the sack at 10PM, up at six and digging, hauling pipe, running shovels and more manual labor. There were days I personally dug 3-4 6 foot deep, 4 foot wide and 8 foot long bell holes for the welders. The backhoe operators pulled up asphalt and said go for it. I loved hard work and jumped in.

If we needed rest so badly, you would have thought we all would break down but we didn't.

Thoughts?

[mleighp1]

One thing that has been interesting to me is that when I train my chest/tricep/shoulders, I find that I end up using some of my biceps as secondary muscles. I was worried that I wasn't going to be giving my biceps enough recovery time if I did biceps on thursday and then trained chest/tricep/shoulders on Friday, but I have noticed that if anything, I've seen more results. Of course a lot of that is diet so its tough to really say how much my recovery time factored into that.

Legs I feel are different though. I really need a bit more recovery time and I don't know if its because its a larger muscle group of what.

[Wanderer]

Overtraining is a huge issue for pro and elite athletes. When I was competing in martial arts heavily, I would often take a couple days off here or there. What I found is that my stats would jump after the time off.

Over time you get run down, your body is trying to repair everything but it takes time depending on the demand your are putting on it.

I found found whenever I would get fatigued mentally and start really wanting to skip training that it was a sign of overtraining. my ability would usually have been decreasing over weeks but I had not noticed it because it occurred gradually. After the break though I was awesome. I would be at 120% of my previous levels

[mleighp1]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I found found whenever I would get fatigued mentally and start really wanting to skip training that it was a sign of overtraining. my ability would usually have been decreasing over weeks but I had not noticed it because it occurred gradually. After the break though I was awesome. I would be at 120% of my previous levels

I hear ya! Getting burned out is a sign of overtraining. Sometimes our bodies can take more than our minds can and even if you don't need a physical break, you need a mental break.

[Stoic_Jason]

Sure, there are subjective claims that performance improves with rest, and countless trainers will advise recovery time for optimum muscle growth, but I think one would be well-served to look for OBJECTIVE and quantifiable evidence.

"I've noticed my muscles get much bigger when I incorporate recovery time into my weightlifting program", well, how reliable is THAT? I think this thread is about muscle growth.

It's like with planned diets. You can count calories, stick to C-P-F ratios, watch glycemic levels, etc. and come up with a very efficient program. Or you can say, "Well, that's too complicated, I'm just going to eat like a pig 5 days a week and starve myself the other 2." And that may work. BUT, it is not optimum. You can chop down a tree with dull lawnmower blade, or a sharp axe. Either works.

If you want to reference scientific study that reports the effects of recovery on muscle growth and strength, Google

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Scooter

Hey, it worked

anyway, the reason I ask about recovery days is that you hear about it all the time. When I was working as a manual hoe operator AKA ditch digger, I would go for hours on end digging holes and performing intesnse manual labor. I did this day in and day out and other than drinking water I had little concern for electrolytes, overworking muscles, tissue breakdown etc... My boss just said dig and I dug. I built a pretty decent body doing this kind of work, my arms were huge, Chest massive, strong heart and good heath. There were other guys on the crew that were even bigger, many looked like body builders and the most rest these guys took was a few hours at the bar after work, in the sack at 10PM, up at six and digging, hauling pipe, running shovels and more manual labor. There were days I personally dug 3-4 6 foot deep, 4 foot wide and 8 foot long bell holes for the welders. The backhoe operators pulled up asphalt and said go for it. I loved hard work and jumped in.

If we needed rest so badly, you would have thought we all would break down but we didn't.

Thoughts?

I would submit if you had tried to best your performance each day you would have broken down.

I made the mistake once of training a group of students to peak and beyond. Vigorous training every session. The developed into formidable students and many people thought they were naturals as they commented on that frequently. not a single one was gifted or a natural. But there was a tipping point. All of a sudden I noticed things, pulled muscles, pains, some of them were taking pain killers all the time, and eventually there skills degraded.

Also remember that many of life's functions are controlled subconsciously. so while you may not have worried about electrolytes I assure you that your body was paying attention to them.

do a pushup a day and add one every day, you might be able to do it at least for a while.

Add 100 a day and you will break down.

[mleighp1]

I watched a documentary recently called "Ballerina". It is about the Russian ballet and the training that those athletes go through. Very intense, and they get very little recovery.

Their schedule:
10:40 a.m. Classic training class
1:30 learn new routines for upcoming shows
6pm get ready for the night's show
7pm-10pm dance in their show

next day, they do the same thing. If they have a foot injury or something, they might take some time off, but only at the risk of falling behind in their career.

They are pretty muscular. Their muscles aren't big, but they are definitely strong. I don't know if there is a difference between just having tone and definition versus building significant amounts of muscle mass, but these dancers seem to do quite well with very little recovery. They don't all that happy, but they seem to manage.

[Scooter]

So Yesterday I worked from home and it was a beautiful day outside.

My calves were extremely sore from my 7 mile barefoot run and I have a small blister on my foot from the run. Blisters come from pushing off too hard. I start this thread and I try to decide, do I take a rest day, let the sore and stiff muscles relax and heal or do I beat my feet and calves into oblivion, take them to a new level and grow, or crash and burn.

It is a tough decision and I decide, beat my feet and calves into oblivion!
The first two miles were excruciating. The muscles were sore and were not loosening up even after some static stretching in the beginning and at mile 1. Downhills were painful and I questioned my method and my madness. Miles 3-4 were a lot better and caused me to go after miles 5 and 6. Mile 5 was a long downhill and the feet and calves had reached a point of pain I probably never have felt before. I thought I might rupture a muscle or worse tear my Achilles but the pain was in both legs, was steady not increasing and was still a sort of pain that reminds me of muscle soreness not tendon. Mile 6 was a long uphill and I picked up the pace and literally sprinted the mile back home. My goal was a 3 mile run and I turned it into a 6 mile run and an exercise in overcoming the head games.

After some ice on the ankles and a nice shower I could barely walk and again wondered if this was the right thing to do but doing what I have always done was not delivering different results, only the same results I always get,

This morning I awoke and headed downstairs to do my push-ups and sit-ups and as I walked around the house, my calves felt really good. After being up for about an hour they are much better feeling today than they were yesterday before the run and if they keep feeling better, I will go for a run tonight. So, rest or work it.

As for now, I am in the work it camp.

[jethrah]

the shaolin monks,they work at a continuous level too.
my best friend practises kung fu,and he recommends working through injuries.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by jethrah

the shaolin monks,they work at a continuous level too.
my best friend practises kung fu,and he recommends working through injuries.

Sorry but your friend is stupid. I've taught martial arts all my adult life and trained almost my entire life and that is the road to disability and constant pain when you get older.

[Wanderer]

Have you never heard of repetitive use injuries? Pain is a signal from your brain to avoid doing something. Generally there is a pretty good reason for that.

As the pain grows the reason to stop should become self evident.

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Have you never heard of repetitive use injuries? Pain is a signal from your brain to avoid doing something. Generally there is a pretty good reason for that.

As the pain grows the reason to stop should become self evident.

I have heard of repetitive use injuries and I am very aware of the term.

I also know that pain is not always an indication of damage but can be an indication of growth. I also know that repetitive use injuries don't always include pain until that damage is complete. Take for example Carpel Tunnel syndrome and Tennis Elbow. Tendonitis most times is an overuse injury and comes on so fast that you are unaware until too late. We are talking about two different things here. Do you really believe that our ancestors decided that if they were sore, they just wouldn't hunt or fight? If that were the case we would have failed as a species.

Pushing through pain is a way to grow, pushing threw the wrong pain is a path to injuries. I suppose knowing the difference is key. If I were experiencing a burning tendon pain or a stabbing knee or hip pain that indicated damage, I would stop and get that checked out, but burning screaming muscles are not something that should stop a workout unless the person is tearing a muscle, a very distinct and painful feeling or a quitter.

As for working through injuries, there is an entire school of thought behind that and it is growing. We tend to baby ourselves way to much. It wasn't long ago the school of thought was to pamper heart patience and not allow them to work out fort fear of another heart attack. We now know the world is not flat and that exercise is good for heart attack patients.

[Wanderer]

Our ancestors did not live to be 100 very often.

Many chronic conditions can be avoided if the early warning signs are headed.
I had issues with repetitive use injury from running. I was younger and my growth plates began to grow into my kneecap. It was from putting on lots of miles on concrete with bad shoes.

it caused a lot of pain at the time and if I would have kept going could have lead to permanent disability.

Just because your body will let you continue doesn't mean you should if you value quality of life.

I don't think taking a rest here and there is a bad thing, because the truth is your body will make you take a rest if you don't do it yourself.

I've done it, and I've seen to many people do it because they failed to listen to what their body was telling them.

[Stoic_Jason]

Yeah, pretty sure Wandy wasn't referring to sore muscles.

And I'm positive hunt or fight is always the best option when starve or be killed are the choices.

"Should I keep running around the bases even though my toes are now facing the opposite direction?" or "I just felt my ACL pop, wonder if I should just tough it through and keep running?" is a little different than "Should I keep doing squats even though my quads are burning?".

[Scooter]

Wand, I get what you're saying and I still have to ponder the argument.

Several years ago I had my left knee lock up on me and the right knee was swelling like a watermelon and every step was painful and popped. I went to an Orthopedic that is well respected in sports medicine and he told me, after I had an MRI that shown arthritis and a torn meniscus in both knees, that my knees were shot and that I should stop running and have surgery.

I went for a second opinion and that doctor laughed and said Dr. So and So is just being cautious, what you need Glucosamine, a little cortisone shot and better form. Let's hold off on surgery and see how you do. I got the shot, worked on my form, increased my mileage and for two years now, I have had ZERO swelling in the knees and (knock on wood) no pain in the knees. Now that I have lost the shoes, and all that pain numbing padding, I am even doing better. Now granted, the first Doctor was not a runner and the second writes for Runner's World Magazine, is an Ultra-Marathoner and loves running.

My point being that if I allowed pain to dictate my behavior in a very accepted and realistic sense, I would have allowed Doctor #1 to cut me open and basically ruin my knees by removing cartilage. As it stands, I still have my own cartilage and the problem is worked out.

Another example I feel that is relevant is my Posterior Tibial Tendon in my left foot. It started screaming pain last year and was diagnosed as inflamed and has an extra bone embedded in it called an accessory navicular bone. Posterior Tibial Tendonitis is an overuse injury and the recommended treatment is immobilizing the foot, absolutely NO barefoot activity and a lifetime of orthotics. The ankle socialist, err, I mean specialist recommended running with orthotics, Highly padded shoes and support. I searched around again for a second opinion because these suggestions were unacceptable. The result is that I was stressing the tendon by tensing my foot upon footfall and I learned to relax, Pain gone. Again, Had I succumbed to the Normal, I would be wearing Nike or Asics with $500 inserts instead of Scooters Organics and probably never solved the problem. Or worse, stopped running and avoided the pain of growth.

The pain in both cases wasn't telling me to stop, it was telling me to change. Had I stopped... well, I hate to think about that. I love running way too much.

The classic idea of pain stops so many people from moving to the next level or solving the real issue and I suppose that is my purpose here. The key here I suppose is an elite athlete knows his or her body well enough to know if the pain is shows growth and development or is damaging. Maybe all the years of running I am finally getting to that point.

Interesting side note here, the Navicular bone is found in only two animals, Horses and Humans. Both are running work animals

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by Stoic_Jason

Yeah, pretty sure Wandy wasn't referring to sore muscles.

go ahead, roll the eyes, be sarcastic. See, I can too

I am sure I didn't mean whatever Wandy meant either. Flip the coin, there are two sides.

[Wanderer]

I understand where you are coming from. however I'd point out that both times you sought out answers to your situation.
What would have happened if you had changed nothing and kept on trucking?