Can god be scientifically proven to exist?

Saf, my take: If god IS everything (omnipresent) which I choose to believe is the case, then that would mean that god is present IN everything in the universe, hence god IS the universe, which would also mean the universe is god. As for what made whom and when and how, I believe that is beyond our human understanding, or at least its been story-telling so far, and only the theory of evolution has been able to provide us some little insight into a fraction of it. Nobody has a 100% objective answer so far, just inferences.

 

Wow wow wow. Dude.........You realize this is what Deepak Chopra makes gazillions of dollars writing books about.

 

It isn't a problem with our language, its just the way things are, yin and yang are a part of us as we exist. The moment you observe something, you immediately become aware of its opposite.

 

This is a video by a guy named Abdullah. He offers proof of the existance of god. I wouldn't mind feedback on the video. I didn't fully understand the arguments he made, so I would be very happy if someone can clarify his argument for me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVkWRSw7VqY&feature=related

And this is a video he made to the responses that he got http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kilMI34B4wg&feature=related

 

No, I didn't realize that. I've never read anything by Deepak Chopra. Maybe I'd better go into competition with him and try to get a cut of those gazillions of dollars! How about, "So, Who Wants To Be Infinite?"

Never read anything by Yin And Yang, either! However, I think you are actually agreeing with me. (I *know* you didn't want to hear that!) It's not just the way *things* are - it's the way *we* are - as a result of language. I'll bet animals don't think of hot and cold, they think "Phew! Better find some shade or I'll die!" or "Yikes! Better find some shelter or I'll freeze!" Well. not really but you get the idea, I hope. It's only because we *have* language that we are capable of thinking in the comparative reasoning way that we do.

Needless to say, I love language!

 

I watched the first video but not the second. His offering was not, in my view, proof of the existence of god. He attributed inifinity to god but denied infinity to anything else. He offered no proof for that. Especially, he denied inifinity to the universe. First definition of "universe" is - the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated. If the 'things' were finite, what exists outside that finite limit? Answer, Nothing, space. But nothing and space are phenomena - concepts, so that would also be included inside the term, universe. Thus, universe must be limitless, infinte.

It's a language thing, again, I agree. Which is why I think that god - generally defined as being infinite - cannot be proven in language, and can only be proven to oneself in one's belief system, which does not require language for proof.

What I don't understand - and I put this as a question to you, Saf (and anyone else) - why are you concerned about whether the existence of god can be proven? Proof is only required to convince someone else. If you believe god exists, that's all you need. You could be the only person on earth who believes that - what does that matter? But you know that there are many people who believe god exists - you don't need proof for them, they already believe. The only reason proof is required is to use it to try to convince others who do not believe.

And that is where the trouble starts. That is where conflict arises. That is where wars are founded. Leave it be! You believe god exists (you said so, I think.) Other people do, too, so you are not alone. Leave it at that. If people are not interested in trying to push their beliefs on other people, they have no need of proof beyond what they already believe.

 

She's a very crafty author.

I was.

 

It depends what you mean by 'God'. If you mean a small god like Allah or Jehovah, then you may be waiting for a long time. In fact, with such strong evidence against an old dude in the sky watching you commit sins all day long, you may want to give it up. You'll feel better once you get over the whole terror of being on a rock flying through space.

If you're talking about a God that is nameless and infinite, then just look around and take comfort in the fact that you can perceive this world as evidence enough.

I think what you're really asking is if there's a personal god that has its own consciousness and may or may not be able to influence your life. It's hard to imagine getting an answer to that any time soon. I would imagine that image is still putting god into much too small a box.

 

From what I see his argument isn't focused on trying to prove existence of god, but more to prove that the universe was created by a god. All he's doing is seeking to prove the universe is finite, and from that he concludes (out of thin air, IOW, his subjective reality) that it must have been created by something infinite. Now don't get me wrong, because I agree with him that god is infinite. But that belief alone is no objective proof of god. And I disagree that the universe is finite. I'd ask him for define to me what universe means to him.

I also think its a bit amusing that we humans are so arrogant we think we must figure this whole thing out. Does that not strike you as a strange egoic need in humans to make sense of everything? And as a consequence end up making up stuff just to sastify the ego? So maybe atheists are not the most noble because they can be just as brash in dismissing religion, but at least they have humbled themselves to the realization that this thing is unknowable.

 

I think the idea behind the deabate is this.

Whatever created the Universe is God.

Everything finite is created or has a cause

Everything finite did not exist to create itself (what happened first, the chicken or the egg, or something infinite created the chicken or the egg)

Since the universe is finite, something must have created it, because it couldn't create itself.

Some people would argue that the universe isn't finite. The the universe is eternal, and infinite. I don't know about that, from what I know is that the universe is limited and has boundries, and a starting date (the big bang)

 

Great question Spider! As a muslim, my whole faith is founded on the belief of one god, that has no partners, no sons, never born, and that god sent down for us humans a book that is the perfect way to live aour lifes, and a prophet as a role model for us to model. Now, most of my beliefs of what is right or wrong come from the Quran. I have full faith that this is the book of god, and I base all my life on these beliefs. One of the beliefs I have is that it is my job to answer questions about Islam, adn to represent Islam the way it is, and to never change my religion for the benefit of others because everything in the Quran is based on the wisdom of god.

I have been asked questions that I can't answer, and as a muslim, I can't misinterpret my religion, or give false information about it, doing so would make me as bad as a terrorist that twists religion and information to get what one wants.

Being a muslim, in my faith, it is my job to challenge people who misrepresent my religion, and who falsify it, and with my religion being based on the worlds of god, god has been come into question.

I have been labeled as ignorant and stupid for believing in a book that is written by a god there is no proof of, and that the whole of my religion is based on fantasy or dreams.

Another part of my faith is to give information and guidance to people who are interested in becoming a muslim. There are so many people in the world that want clarity, and want to make sense of the universe and everything in it, and it's my job as a muslim to help people understand Islam.

In Islam we aren't allowed to force others to believe anything, and we have to respect the beliefs of others too. I don't want to force anyone to believe anything, but if someone came to me to ask me about my religion, I would like to give the best interpretation of my religion, and understanding that I can.

When trying to understand Islam, the main problem people have is that everything is based on the belief of one god, and that we can't see god. That's why it's important for me to know if there are any ways of proving his existance.

I understand where you are coming from Spider (if you believe, why should you care if others do or not?)

 

I thank everyone so much for there respect. I am happy that we have managed to be mature about this topic, and am happy for all the replies. :thumb:

 

Two follow-up points, Saf

The Big Bang, as the starting point of the Universe. We don't know that the universe started at that point. We only know (or perhaps theorize) that the universe that we know started at that point. We also know that the universe is currently expanding, everything moving away from some central point (which is basic proof that a big bang occurred.) We also know that the expanding universe is slowing down. if it continues to slow dow, it will eventually stop expanding. At that point, the gravitational forces of bodies in space will cause it to start contracting. It is postulated that eventually the whole of the mass of the universe will collide with itself into what is known as a 'Black Hole.' Now black holes already exist - they are areas of space that are so dense and with such a strong gravitational pull that even light cannot escape (thus the term 'black hole,') It is postulated that the entire mass of the universe that we know can be compressed into a ball about the size of a basketball. When such a total mass as we know is so densely compressed, it will explode - the next big bank. Thus is it easy to conclude that our universe could have existed forever, going through a never-ending cycle lasting billions of years, one big bang after another.

Second point: Your religion, and other religions, call for adherents to evangelize. That's not forcing others to believe, but it is - exactly as you said - answering questions and offering guidance - "it's my job as a muslim to help people understand Islam." Just as it is a christian's job to do the same for Christianity. It is the religions themselves that call upon their followers to evangelize. Not 'forcing' but still trying to convince. That is the only reason that emprical proof is needed. Without that call to evangelize, proof is not needed - belief is proof enough.

 

Yes, you're absolutely correct on both points.

I went to a friend of mine who has dedicated his life to studying: Islam, science, psychology, PD, and many more things. He said to be that humans haven't reached 100% certainty of the whole universe. He also said that Einstein spent his whole life trying to prove how definite the universe is, and never achieved to prove that. Einstein said, there are two things that puzzled me in life, the infinity of space, and the stupidity of man.

My friend said that since science is constantly developing, and there isn't 100% certainty about the laws of the universe and science, there isn't a way of scientifically proving god. Even If there was a way of proving it scientifically, any proof provided would be constantly under scrutany, and proved wrong by new evidence. He also told me that the only way to prove that there is god, is through using the Quran, which is full of future predictions, cures, and miracles.

I have to agree on the second point too. Throughout history people have advised others on the best way to do things both religious and not, the best things to believe, and what's moral and immoral. I think the want to share with others your beliefs is only human. You even wrote a book about your beliefs on a topic, and giving others advice. I don't see what you are doing as bad. I respect you for sharing the knowledge you have here, and doing it for free too. People of faiths believe that their faiths are for the benefit of others, and they want to share the greatness of their religions with others.

I saw Seek as someone that wanted to save and help people. I didn't like his aproach, but I chose to see the good in him. When people had their differences with you (Spider), I chose to see the good in you. I dismissed claims of you being racist and against religion because whenever I provided any information about Islam you read it without being racist in any way.

I hope I don't come off as forcing my religion on others. I don't have any problems with atheists or any other faiths, and I never have. My grand parents are atheists, and that's no problem for me. They made it clear that they don't believe in god and that they don't have any intention in doing so.

It's my job not to turn my back on someone who is interested in Islam, and it's also my job to interpret Islam the way it is. In Islam we believe that the Quran should be enough if someone is interested, and we don't need to interpret our religion in any other form just to satisfy the person listening. We believe in the wisdom of god, and that we aren't cleverer than god, so we can't change our religion or hide parts of it, just to be convincing.

I don't normally get involved in religious topics, but when I saw people talking trash about the Quran and Islam (not here), I started replying to every post. I feel the way some people are representing Islam to others is just spreading hate. For the people who have no knowledge it could be very dangerous. I think a chinese pholospher said, all you have to do to change the world is to twirl your finger in the air. I think by letting people soread false information and hatred without replying is not taking any responsibility for peace on this earth.

For the people who mentioned that I didn't have sense for bringing up the topic, at the beginig I was against the idea that god could be scientifically proven due to constant development of science. I continuously told atheists (not here by the way) that I repect them, and have no problem with them not believing in god, and that it served me fine. They wouldn't drop the topic, and went on and on. It made me question my belief, and that's why I thought I would play with the idea and see if there were any ways that we could be 100% certain on, which could prove the existence of god.

Another reason is because I let the people talking trash about Islam (not here) get to me. It's my fault, and I take responsibilty for that. Normally I am very level headed, and I don't let others get to me that easily, but I'm not a Buddah yet :biglaugh:. So yes, my emotions did get the best of me.

The third reason is because my whole beliefs are based on the fact that there is one god, he is eternal, never was created, has no son's, he is the creator of this universe, and that the Quran is his book, which is a complete guidence for muslims until the end of time. Whenever someone asks me about Islam, especially if they don't believe in god, they have a problem understanding how we believe in god, and how we accept the Quran as the book of god.

 

Empirical proof challenges erroneous beliefs. It seems a very narrow view of the world to say that belief is proof enough. What if you have never seen any evidence that is contrary to the belief that you hold? I for one am glad for the times where I have been presented with or become aware of evidence that has challenged my beliefs at the time and allowed me to change them. The "evangelizer" in this case does not "need" the proof, but the "evangelee" might be glad that it is available to them.

That aside, there is a field of study in Christianity called Christian Apologetics. I don't see that about studying God's word to be evangelistic, although it can be used as an evangelistic tool, but rather it is a study that affirms ones faith and reconciles it to the world and what we see. You can have blind faith where you put your head in the sand and answer every challenge with I believe just because I believe, or you can go back to God's word and study it and interpret it and consider it in the light of the challenges and see what holds and what doesn't.

 

What evidence should there be to prove god? Just another question.

 

I have my own viewpoints on god/spirituality that I won't get into here. I could spend hours talking about the subject. But I will say this.

How is it that after millions and millions and millions of years, we (as homo-sapiens) are the only creatures to posses real reasoning skills far exceeding that of any creature on this planet? How is it we evolved to the point we're at and no other animal has even come close? Perhaps we aren't just meat and bones after-all. Perhaps there is a little more to us then that.

 

There is a branch of science that is trying to attempt just that, prove the existence of God, the soul. It is called "Noetic Science." If you have read Dan Brown's "The Lost Symbol" he talks about Noetic Science. But don't discount it because Dan Brown used it in a book. Noetic science was around before he wrote the book, he just used it as a vehicle for the plot.

 

good.

good post.

 

Can God's existence be proven?....
BD No. 8265 of 09/06/1962 taken from book 87



My existence can never be proven to you humans, because then you would become subject to compulsory faith.... But you are supposed to arrive at the light and realisation about Me of your own free will during your earthly life, and this is certainly possible. You only need to think about it, for everything around you can provide you with the evidence of a God and Creator.... For even if you at first try to deny a divine Being you nevertheless have to acknowledge a Strength Which is expressing Itself throughout the whole of creation. Thus you cannot deny this strength, but the natural law, which likewise cannot be denied by you, the destined purpose of the works of creation around you.... are in turn evidence of a deliberately directed Strength Which infers a thinking Being....

Hence your goal on earth is to establish contact with this thinking Being, otherwise it would be irrelevant as to whether you describe Me as the strength that is recognisable by you. Yet you are not likely to call upon a 'Strength' and try to establish contact with it.... As soon as you spend some serious thought on it with the determination to ascertain the truth, I will also reveal Myself to you as a spiritually tangible God and Creator.... If, however, you are indifferent to Whom you owe your life as a human being, then you will be lacking the sincere will and you will never attain inner clarity. Furthermore, your own nature as a human being should make you think.... No person is able to create a being with the ability to think, with self-awareness and free will.... Consequently, you must have emerged from a similar Being, only that It is, in contrast to you, supremely perfect, but this Being, too, has to possess self-awareness, the faculty of thought and a will, and this Being works with love, incomparable wisdom and power....

You can never regard yourselves to be a product of coincidence, for if this strength were not directed by a will it would always have an elemental effect, thus be destructive but never progressive, yet this refutes the destined purpose and natural law of creation.... My existence cannot be proven to you, but creation is convincing evidence of an all-powerful Being for every thinking human being, even if this Being is inconceivable to him, if he is unable to form a real idea of it.... He is just still very distant from Me and thus spiritually completely unenlightened.... which is due to the fact that his fall into the abyss had deprived him of all light. And if such a person receives the knowledge about Me as the highest and most perfect Spirit in eternity his opposition to Me breaks through, and he wants to deny Me as he once had done when he rejected the light of My love and thus became spiritually unenlightened. But in earthly life he must try to escape the darkness, he must want to get clarification about himself and his origin, and he must be willing to do what is right, and thus also allow himself to be taught by those who are able to bring him light. But a completely dark spirit will also lack willpower, and he will reject all explanations because he always feels that the knowledge about a God and Creator will give him a guilty conscience, which he refuses to accept.

Trying to convince a fellow human being of the existence of a powerful God therefore only makes sense if he himself wants to know something about it, whereas a person who constantly likes to deny God remains incorrigible and no energy should be wasted on him, for his will is the decisive factor as to whether he ever finds his way out of the darkness. He must also come to realise the existence of a God and Creator without proof, which will happen if he endeavours to live a life of love, as in that case he is already making contact with Me and the desire for truth will subsequently arise in him too. And then his thinking will already be guided, he will be mentally influenced by beings of light into whose care he is entrusted, and his resistance will begin to wane.... which is also aided by the intercession of fellow human beings, and that will always have the effect of an increased strength of will....

Amen